TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

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TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Mark Janssen-6

 TIP #467: MOVE TIP COLLECTION TO FOSSIL
=========================================
 Version:      $Revision: 1.1 $
 Author:       Mark Janssen <mpc.janssen_at_gmail.com>
 State:        Draft
 Type:         Process
 Vote:         Pending
 Created:      Tuesday, 14 March 2017
 URL:          http://purl.org/tcl/tip/467.html
 WebEdit:      http://purl.org/tcl/tip/edit/467
 Post-History:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 ABSTRACT
==========

 The Tcl TIP collection shall be moved to Fossil and the process of
 managing TIPs shall use Fossil as much as possible. The TIP format will
 be changed from a TIP-specific form to Markdown.

 RATIONALE
===========

 Triggered by some people having issues with changing content on current
 TIP website and discussion on the #tcl chat, I have experimented with
 fossil as a medium to host the Tcl TIP collection.

 The current TIP storage and handling requires a lot of scripts that
 need to be maintained by the TCT and it is less open than it could be.
 There are also advantages to switching to Fossil in place of CVS.

     * Fossil has embedded Markdown rendering

     * Fossil is already used to manage the Tcl and Tk sources.

     * TIP discussion and CFVs can be done and tracked using fossil
       tickets.

     * Fossil events one could also track CFV's and Vote results

     * CVS is extremely vulnerable to problems with system
       administration on a single host. With a fossil-based system, it
       is much simpler to have multiple repositories.

 Besides Fossil supporting Markdown out of the box, markdown is also
 better option for the future than the current format because the value
 of making up your own plain text format in this age is debatable
 (especially for the TIP requirements). Markdown has widely available
 options to convert to other formats without any need for the community
 to maintain the converters, and supports key extra features such as
 embedded images (which are important for some Tk TIPs, and never worked
 particularly well with the old TIP format).

 SPECIFICATION
===============

 PROCESS
---------

 TBD

 TIP FORMAT
------------

 The markdown tip format has one extension to standard markdown:

 Any TIP.md file will have a mandatory preamble starting with the title
 (for fossil rendering) and ending with a `------` on a single line.
 Between these parts there is tab indented meta information about the
 tip. (Tab indented so it renders nicer in fossil, 4 spaces would also
 work)

 Example from [TIP #0]:

   # TIP 0: Tcl Core Team Basic Rules
       State:          Final
       Type:           Process
       Vote:           Done
       Post-History:
   ------

 IMPLEMENTATION
================

     * There is a proof of concept conversion (with CVS history) at
       <URL:https://fossil.mpcjanssen.nl/tips>

     * The scripts for the automatic conversion are at
       <URL:https://fossil.mpcjanssen.nl/tip-migration>

 COPYRIGHT
===========

 This document has been placed in the public domain.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 TIP AutoGenerator - written by Donal K. Fellows

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Re: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Donal K. Fellows-2
On 20/03/2017 23:48, Mark Janssen wrote:
>  TIP #467: MOVE TIP COLLECTION TO FOSSIL

Some notes on my thoughts on this TIP.

1. Generally a good idea. The existing software is creaky stuff that
relies on Tcl 8.0 and really needed replacing years ago. Markdown
renderers also have better failure modes than my old code.

2. The TIP headers could be basically database table entries. (Well, the
authors would need to be their own table that's properly a many-to-many
relation.)

3. The body of TIPs can most definitely be converted to markdown; the
existing format is purely about what things look like. There's very
little semantic info in the format.

4. We might also consider looking for additional things that ought to be
done. I'd like `code` highlighting, and also better ways to inline
references to issues and repository branches.

Donal.

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Re: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Mark Janssen-6
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 7:34 AM, Donal K. Fellows
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 20/03/2017 23:48, Mark Janssen wrote:
>>
>>  TIP #467: MOVE TIP COLLECTION TO FOSSIL
>
>
> Some notes on my thoughts on this TIP.
>
> 1. Generally a good idea. The existing software is creaky stuff that relies
> on Tcl 8.0 and really needed replacing years ago. Markdown renderers also
> have better failure modes than my old code.
>

IMO a big part of moving the TIPs to fossil is not only the change of
markup (this is a minor thing) but also the change to fossil as
hosting medium, my other remarks should be seen in that light.


> 2. The TIP headers could be basically database table entries. (Well, the
> authors would need to be their own table that's properly a many-to-many
> relation.)
>

Adding the headers in a database is possible (and useful) however I
don't see how we can easily integrate this into fossil. Also, the
proposed preamble makes parsing of the tips to determine the headers
very easy (see for example
https://fossil.mpcjanssen.nl/tips/file/scripts/mkhtmlindex.tcl?ln=39-48)


> 3. The body of TIPs can most definitely be converted to markdown; the
> existing format is purely about what things look like. There's very little
> semantic info in the format.
>
> 4. We might also consider looking for additional things that ought to be
> done. I'd like `code` highlighting, and also better ways to inline
> references to issues and repository branches.
>


As I suspected. I think the current to markdown conversion script is
working as it should to keep the formatting. I agree that at some
places the markdown element used could be changed (most common <em> to
<code>). Code highlighting would preferably be handled by some css or
javascript (or any other option that wont need fossil changes)

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Re: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Donal K. Fellows-2
On 22/03/2017 08:57, Mark Janssen wrote:
> I agree that at some places the markdown element used could be
> changed (most common <em> to <code>).

Yes, but it's probably something we have to do by hand. There's “only” a
few hundred files to examine though, so it's just an annoying job, not
an impossible one. We could even simply not bother with some files; the
prime candidates would be the withdrawn and rejected TIPs, though final
ones might also be reasonable candidates for skipping (especially for
versions older than 8.6).

Donal.

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Re: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Francois Vogel
In reply to this post by Mark Janssen-6
Mark Janssen a écrit le 21/03/2017 à 00:48 :
>   TIP #467: MOVE TIP COLLECTION TO FOSSIL
> =========================================

The TIP author has informed me on the chat that he believes this TIP
is ready for a vote.

Now is the time to comment and discuss this TIP if anyone still has
concerns about it.

If no dramatically negative feedback or other showstoppers pop out, I
plan to launch a vote in two weeks from now.

Regards,
Francois


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CFV: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Francois Vogel
Francois Vogel a écrit le 22/04/2017 à 12:28 :

> Mark Janssen a écrit le 21/03/2017 à 00:48 :
>>    TIP #467: MOVE TIP COLLECTION TO FOSSIL
>> =========================================
> The TIP author has informed me on the chat that he believes this TIP
> is ready for a vote.
>
> Now is the time to comment and discuss this TIP if anyone still has
> concerns about it.
>
> If no dramatically negative feedback or other showstoppers pop out, I
> plan to launch a vote in two weeks from now.

Two weeks have now passed without any further discussion about this
TIP at all.

So this is a Call For Votes on TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Let the voting period be a week, with closure at noon (GMT) Sat May 13
14:00:00 CEST 2017, [clock format 1494676800]

My vote is:

         TIP #467: YES

Regards,
Francois


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Re: CFV: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Jan Nijtmans-2
2017-05-06 11:14 GMT+02:00 Francois Vogel:
> So this is a Call For Votes on TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

My vote is:
      TIP #467: YES

Regards,
      Jan Nijtmans

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Re: CFV: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Brian Griffin-4
In reply to this post by Francois Vogel

On May 6, 2017, at 2:14 AM, Francois Vogel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Francois Vogel a écrit le 22/04/2017 à 12:28 :
Mark Janssen a écrit le 21/03/2017 à 00:48 :
  TIP #467: MOVE TIP COLLECTION TO FOSSIL
=========================================

So this is a Call For Votes on TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Let the voting period be a week, with closure at noon (GMT) Sat May 13
14:00:00 CEST 2017, [clock format 1494676800]


TIP #467:  YES

-Brian



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Re: CFV: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Alexandre Ferrieux
In reply to this post by Francois Vogel
On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 11:14 AM, Francois Vogel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Mark Janssen a écrit le 21/03/2017 à 00:48 :
>>>    TIP #467: MOVE TIP COLLECTION TO FOSSIL

TIP #467: YES

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Re: CFV: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Steve Landers
In reply to this post by Francois Vogel

On 6 May 2017, 5:15 PM +0800, Francois Vogel <[hidden email]>, wrote:

So this is a Call For Votes on TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil 

TIP #467: YES


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Re: CFV: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Kevin Kenny-6
In reply to this post by Francois Vogel
TIP 467: YES

On May 6, 2017 5:15 AM, "Francois Vogel" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Francois Vogel a écrit le 22/04/2017 à 12:28 :
> Mark Janssen a écrit le 21/03/2017 à 00:48 :
>>    TIP #467: MOVE TIP COLLECTION TO FOSSIL
>> =========================================
> The TIP author has informed me on the chat that he believes this TIP
> is ready for a vote.
>
> Now is the time to comment and discuss this TIP if anyone still has
> concerns about it.
>
> If no dramatically negative feedback or other showstoppers pop out, I
> plan to launch a vote in two weeks from now.

Two weeks have now passed without any further discussion about this
TIP at all.

So this is a Call For Votes on TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Let the voting period be a week, with closure at noon (GMT) Sat May 13
14:00:00 CEST 2017, [clock format 1494676800]

My vote is:

         TIP #467: YES

Regards,
Francois


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Re: CFV: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Dipl. Ing. Sergey G. Brester
In reply to this post by Francois Vogel
 
TIP #467: YES

Am 06.05.2017 11:14, schrieb Francois Vogel:

Francois Vogel a écrit le 22/04/2017 à 12:28 :
Mark Janssen a écrit le 21/03/2017 à 00:48 :
TIP #467: MOVE TIP COLLECTION TO FOSSIL =========================================
The TIP author has informed me on the chat that he believes this TIP is ready for a vote. Now is the time to comment and discuss this TIP if anyone still has concerns about it. If no dramatically negative feedback or other showstoppers pop out, I plan to launch a vote in two weeks from now.
Two weeks have now passed without any further discussion about this 
TIP at all.

So this is a Call For Votes on TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Let the voting period be a week, with closure at noon (GMT) Sat May 13 
14:00:00 CEST 2017, [clock format 1494676800]

My vote is:

         TIP #467: YES

Regards,
Francois


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Re: CFV: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Christian Gollwitzer
Hi Sergey,

Am 07.05.17 um 12:14 schrieb Dipl. Ing. Sergey G. Brester:
>    
> TIP #467: YES
>

just to clarify: the votes are counted among the members of the TCT. You
can find the rules here http://www.tcl.tk/cgi-bin/tct/tip/0 and the
current members there https://wiki.tcl.tk/977

It is of course welcome that you express your opinion on the tips, but
please don't be surprised that your vote is not counted.

Best regards,

        Christian

> Am 06.05.2017 11:14, schrieb Francois Vogel:
>
>> Francois Vogel a écrit le 22/04/2017 à 12:28 :
>>> Mark Janssen a écrit le 21/03/2017 à 00:48 :
>>>> TIP #467: MOVE TIP COLLECTION TO FOSSIL
>>>> =========================================
>>> The TIP author has informed me on the chat that he believes this TIP
>>> is ready for a vote. Now is the time to comment and discuss this TIP
>>> if anyone still has concerns about it. If no dramatically negative
>>> feedback or other showstoppers pop out, I plan to launch a vote in
>>> two weeks from now.
>> Two weeks have now passed without any further discussion about this
>> TIP at all.
>>
>> So this is a Call For Votes on TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil
>>
>> Let the voting period be a week, with closure at noon (GMT) Sat May 13
>> 14:00:00 CEST 2017, [clock format 1494676800]
>>
>> My vote is:
>>
>>           TIP #467: YES
>>
>> Regards,
>> Francois
>>
>>
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>
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>
>
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Re: CFV: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Donal K. Fellows-2
In reply to this post by Francois Vogel
On 06/05/2017 10:14, Francois Vogel wrote:
> So this is a Call For Votes on TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

As long as we can continue to carry out the business of the TCT, I've no
problem with moving.

TIP #467: YES

Donal.

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Re: CFV: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Francois Vogel
In reply to this post by Francois Vogel
Francois Vogel a écrit le 06/05/2017 à 11:14 :

> Francois Vogel a écrit le 22/04/2017 à 12:28 :
>> Mark Janssen a écrit le 21/03/2017 à 00:48 :
>>>     TIP #467: MOVE TIP COLLECTION TO FOSSIL
>>> =========================================
>> The TIP author has informed me on the chat that he believes this TIP
>> is ready for a vote.
> Two weeks have now passed without any further discussion about this
> TIP at all.
>
> So this is a Call For Votes on TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Result for TIP #467:

YES: 7 (Fellows, Ferrieux, Griffin, Kenny, Landers, Nijtmans, Vogel)
NO: 0
PRESENT: 0

This TIP is accepted. Congrats!

Many thanks to all, especially to the TIP author, Mark Janssen, who did the implementation!

Regards,
Francois




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Re: CFV: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Mark Janssen-6
Great news!

I am a bit swamped at the moment, but I will propose a migration plan
as soon as I have some bandwidth. Main actions IMO:

1) Make current tip.tcl.tk read only.
2) Retreive CVS export.
3) Perform migration.
4) Set-up fossil repo at core.tcl.tk and configure access + search
5) Make fossil repo leading.
6) Redirect tip.tcl.tk.

I can do 3 and assist in 4. I will need help for the other points.

On Sat, May 13, 2017 at 10:06 PM, Francois Vogel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Francois Vogel a écrit le 06/05/2017 à 11:14 :
>> Francois Vogel a écrit le 22/04/2017 à 12:28 :
>>> Mark Janssen a écrit le 21/03/2017 à 00:48 :
>>>>     TIP #467: MOVE TIP COLLECTION TO FOSSIL
>>>> =========================================
>>> The TIP author has informed me on the chat that he believes this TIP
>>> is ready for a vote.
>> Two weeks have now passed without any further discussion about this
>> TIP at all.
>>
>> So this is a Call For Votes on TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil
>
> Result for TIP #467:
>
> YES: 7 (Fellows, Ferrieux, Griffin, Kenny, Landers, Nijtmans, Vogel)
> NO: 0
> PRESENT: 0
>
> This TIP is accepted. Congrats!
>
> Many thanks to all, especially to the TIP author, Mark Janssen, who did the implementation!
>
> Regards,
> Francois
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: CFV: TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Steve Landers
I’ll do 6 when you are ready

On 17 May 2017, 2:52 PM +0800, Mark Janssen <[hidden email]>, wrote:

Great news!

I am a bit swamped at the moment, but I will propose a migration plan
as soon as I have some bandwidth. Main actions IMO:

1) Make current tip.tcl.tk read only.
2) Retreive CVS export.
3) Perform migration.
4) Set-up fossil repo at core.tcl.tk and configure access + search
5) Make fossil repo leading.
6) Redirect tip.tcl.tk.

I can do 3 and assist in 4. I will need help for the other points.

On Sat, May 13, 2017 at 10:06 PM, Francois Vogel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Francois Vogel a écrit le 06/05/2017 à 11:14 :
Francois Vogel a écrit le 22/04/2017 à 12:28 :
Mark Janssen a écrit le 21/03/2017 à 00:48 :
TIP #467: MOVE TIP COLLECTION TO FOSSIL
=========================================
The TIP author has informed me on the chat that he believes this TIP
is ready for a vote.
Two weeks have now passed without any further discussion about this
TIP at all.

So this is a Call For Votes on TIP #467: Move TIP Collection to Fossil

Result for TIP #467:

YES: 7 (Fellows, Ferrieux, Griffin, Kenny, Landers, Nijtmans, Vogel)
NO: 0
PRESENT: 0

This TIP is accepted. Congrats!

Many thanks to all, especially to the TIP author, Mark Janssen, who did the implementation!

Regards,
Francois




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